Trump +81; Obama -11

Message
Author
k.d.
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Trump +81; Obama -11

#1 Post by k.d. » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:34 pm

Year One List: 81 major Trump achievements, 11 Obama legacy items repealed
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/year- ... le/2644159
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#2 Post by j.p. » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:36 am

I will give him a few. Tax reform and a couple of regulatory administrative rules.

Putting aside the many really stupid ones. The ones that I would call achievements were culiminations of work by previous administrations. He just happened to be sitting the chair. If Trump does do anything notable, the benefits will be realized after he is gone.

C'mon dude, you know he hasn't been in there a year yet. Was this article a Mike Pence parody ?

Here's a doozy:
"Saw the Dow Jones reach record highs" I can take credit for this one. Is saw it to, Spent many hours in my easy chair watching CNBC.

k.d.
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#3 Post by k.d. » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:53 pm

Regardless, Merry Christmas to my favorite Liberaltarian. (that is not a spelling mistake. you certainly are not a libertarian) HO HO HO!
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#4 Post by j.p. » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:50 pm

Happy Holidays right back at you ! Thanks for not insulting me by calling me a libertarian.

I would've wished you a Merry Christmas. But I cannot concede to Trump that he won the War on Christmas which he actually claimed recently. I didn't see that in your list ???

b.w. richardson
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#5 Post by b.w. richardson » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:52 am

As a libertarian, I wonder what misconceptions you have about what's a libertarian. As a liberal, you surely know that libertarians are liberals who had to change the label because collectivists appropriated it.

But Merry Christmas to my favorite, um, whatever you guys are. I'm actually not into labels much, they tend to obscure the real human beings attached to them.

j.p.
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#6 Post by j.p. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 am

I may have misconceptions about what's a libertarian. From what I can tell there are none in congress and I have never met one. If someone can accept that collectivism and libertarianism are NOT mutally exclusive, and that the modern libertatian believes that there is good and bad collectivism. Then I will admit that libertarians do exist.

b.w. richardson
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#7 Post by b.w. richardson » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:21 am

It depends on what you mean by "collectivism." What I meant by "collectivism" is the idea that it's appropriate to force people in a group to serve what someone (often arbitrarily) describes as the common good. If YOU meant that sometimes people can voluntarily band together to serve a common goal, then yes, libertarianism and collectivism can co-exist.

I believe you can only call yourself a libertarian if you embrace the zero aggression principle:
A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being for any reason whatever; nor will a libertarian advocate the initiation of force, or delegate it to anyone else.

Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim.
— L. Neil Smith
To address a common misconception, the ZAP allows for a person to use force to defend against someone who has initiated force against hims/herself.

Government is, essentially, an instrument of force. Therefore a libertarian in Congress is pretty much an oxymoron.

j.p.
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#8 Post by j.p. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:59 am

b.w. richardson wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:21 am
It depends on what you mean by "collectivism." What I meant by "collectivism" is the idea that it's appropriate to force people in a group to serve what someone (often arbitrarily) describes as the common good. If YOU meant that sometimes people can voluntarily band together to serve a common goal, then yes, libertarianism and collectivism can co-exist.
I find the difference to be rather trivial. The word "force" seem squishy in this context. Unless you do not believe in representational government.

b.w. richardson
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#9 Post by b.w. richardson » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:18 pm

j.p. wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:59 am
b.w. richardson wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:21 am
It depends on what you mean by "collectivism." What I meant by "collectivism" is the idea that it's appropriate to force people in a group to serve what someone (often arbitrarily) describes as the common good. If YOU meant that sometimes people can voluntarily band together to serve a common goal, then yes, libertarianism and collectivism can co-exist.
I find the difference to be rather trivial. The word "force" seem squishy in this context. Unless you do not believe in representational government.
There's nothing squishy or trivial about it. Let's say an agreed common good is to give 10 percent of your wealth to the poor. (It's just an example, k.d.!) In a voluntary world, if I choose to give 5 percent, 15 percent, or none, there's no consequence. In a collective world, I face fines and federal prison if I pay zero or 5 percent.

I'm not especially convinced we are living under a representational government, but the theory is more sound than most forms of government. As to whether I "believe" in it, that's a big word.

j.p.
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Trump +81; Obama -11

#10 Post by j.p. » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:08 pm

Not sure a "voluntary world" as you describe has ever existed in civilization.

Any lawful expenditure by our government is done with our consent.

Post Reply