Guns Are The Problem?

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k.d.
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Guns Are The Problem?

Post by k.d. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Consider the following history:

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.
Chris Fetters, age 13, while taking Prozac, killed his favorite aunt.
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.
Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers.
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who, for no apparent motive, killed a woman.
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledgehammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially, it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.
Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.
Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a ladder at the family’s home in July 2002.
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)
Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)
Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s garage.
Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt in his closet.
Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.
Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death, his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of
Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”
Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazepine.
Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax, and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.
Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon, Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Missing from list… 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds:

Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21…… killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az?
James Eagan Holmes on, age 24….. killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?
Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or?
Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by j.p. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:23 pm

It's not guns that are the problem. It's people with guns that are the problem. And if the people happen to have a certain mental illness, it's a bigger problem. If those same people have access to assault weapons it's a bigger problem yet.

Can't do anything about people and guns, but we might be able to teeter around the edges with the mental illness and assault rifle issues.

Would reducing the kill from 17 to say 4 or 5 be worth trying to do something ?

k.d.
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by k.d. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:36 pm

And then there is the timeline. Boys used to take their hunting rifles to school in my day. And in my day we were not forced to take drugs, whether it be Ritalin or Prozac or the newest drugs concocted by Big Pharma's Frankensteins. And in my day there were no mass killings in any schools, yet guns were in the schools or in the cars in the parking lot. It really doesn't take a genius to figure out the actual root of the problem.
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by j.p. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:08 pm

k.d. wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:36 pm
And then there is the timeline. Boys used to take their hunting rifles to school in my day. And in my day we were not forced to take drugs, whether it be Ritalin or Prozac or the newest drugs concocted by Big Pharma's Frankensteins. And in my day there were no mass killings in any schools, yet guns were in the schools or in the cars in the parking lot. It really doesn't take a genius to figure out the actual root of the problem.
I never heard of anybody who were allowed to take their hunting rifles to school in my day. How old are you ? And what would anybody do with a hunting rifle in school ? I don't think I would have done any better with the chicks if I showed them my 12 gauge in my locker.

I think the forced use of antidepressants is largely a myth. Given that 10-15% of americans are on antidrepressants it's hard to blame mass murders on them. But drugs do effect people differently, not totally discounting the use as something that would make these individuals aggressive. But that has no bearing on my argument about assault rifles being a culprit.

Without the multiple automatic rounds there would be less "mass" in murder. I can't think of any angle for disagreement with that.

k.d.
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by k.d. » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:08 pm

According to LPRI it is almost 75% of Americans taking psychotropic drugs, so you might wanna start by getting some facts and statistics correct. You also might wanna get your eyes checked if you can't see the zoned-out, zombie looks on these kids faces.
Then you might wanna consider the amount of ad revenue these networks and news stations would lose if they mentioned these drugs as a possible cause for their actions. Not to mention that every single one of these mass killers were on drugs. How can you possibly ignore that fact?
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by j.p. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:00 am

What is LPRI ? I keep find figures close to what I posted. Maybe you are talking about just young children ? Even though it's irrelevent, the 75% figure actually bolsters my argument.

k.d.
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by k.d. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:57 am

Explain how that bolsters your argument against guns.
http://www.londoncenter.org/
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by j.p. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:58 pm

k.d. wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:57 am
Explain how that bolsters your argument against guns.
http://www.londoncenter.org/
I don't have any argument against guns.

If the use of antidepressants is as prevelant as you claim and if they are mostly responsible for mass murders as, I think, you're claiming. Mass murders would be more common. 75% of 323m equal 230 million of us are predisposed to commit mass murder.

k.d.
Posts: 627
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by k.d. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:19 pm

I would guess that the effect of these drugs given to 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 year-old kids that don't need these drugs, would be different than giving them to someone who actually may have a mental health problem.
BTW, it wasn't me who coined the term, 'opioid epidemic'.
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”

― Ringo Starr

j.p.
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Guns Are The Problem?

Post by j.p. » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:38 pm

k.d. wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:19 pm
I would guess that the effect of these drugs given to 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 year-old kids that don't need these drugs, would be different than giving them to someone who actually may have a mental health problem.
BTW, it wasn't me who coined the term, 'opioid epidemic'.
You may be right. Certainly there is a huge problem with overprescribed medication perpectuated by Big Pharma and their bought medical "professional" cohorts.

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